The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

In my last article about the Legend of Zelda games, I put forth the suggestion that Nintendo should make Link gender-optional, because there’s no reason to exclude female players from having this option. Though, perhaps in retrospect that was a bit unfair of me, as the Zelda series just might be the single best adventure franchise when it comes to female representation.

Recently, the newest game in the franchise (though, not really a part of the main franchise, and more of a fun side entry) came out, called Hyrule Warriors, where for the first time you get to play as not only Link, but a number of other characters. In this game, you can play as ten different hero characters and only two of them are male. Wait… what the hell? Did I just walk into a weird warped alternate universe where gender representation has been flipped completely around?

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

No, what actually happened is that this is merely the latest example of how in the 25 year long history of Zelda, females have always had a prominent role within the games. Only two of the playable characters have been invented specifically for Hyrule Warriors, and the rest have all been part of Zelda lore for quite some time. Actually, there are plenty of other women who popped up in the Zelda games from time to time who could have also been used as well, if the creators had so chosen.

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While it’s true that in the very first Legend of Zelda game for the NES, Zelda herself amounted to nothing more than a variation on Princess Peach, her role was soon expanded, and over the years she’s become much more important.

Ever since the highly acclaimed Ocarina of Time, there’s been a lot of effort put into making Zelda herself a proactive participant within the gameplay, and not just another damsel in distress. Let’s not forget that Sheik in Ocarina of Time turned out to be Zelda all along, and she was basically our mysterious ninja helper giving us clues and guiding us through the dangers of future Hyrule.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

Zelda in the games is not just a princess; she’s the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia, she carries the Triforce of Wisdom, and she’s one of the Seven Sages. In the past, she hasn’t been afraid to sacrifice herself to save others, like in Twilight Princess, where she gave her own life force to allow Midna to live, or in Skyward Sword, where she chose to sleep for a thousand years to become a living seal protecting the world from the Demon King.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

Though admittedly, she changes a lot from game to game in terms of how awesome she is. In Wind Waker, Zelda was a sassy pirate captain, but a few games later, she was a helpless ghost afraid of mice. Seriously, what happened to you in Spirit Tracks, Zelda? You used to be cool. Oh well, at least she was still useful.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

Aside from Zelda herself, the number of females who play an active part in the Zelda series is in fact overwhelming. In Ocarina of Time, one of your quests is to find the Seven Sages, five out of whom turn out to be female. And they’re not just bland, interchangeable females, either; they actually have distinct personalities and designs, and fleshed out background stories.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

Impa is one of those Sages, and a figure who’s popped up in the Zelda series on many occasions, always being Zelda’s most loyal servant, advisor, and protector. But her character also shifts a lot from game to game. Sometimes, she’s an old weak woman who can only give advice, and sometimes she’s a kick-ass soldier and ninja! And in Skyward Sword, she’s somehow both. Nicely played, Skyward Sword, nicely played.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

Then there are all of Link’s companions; it’s almost as if Link were the Doctor, always followed around by some companion giving him advice on how to progress and informing him of in-game mechanics. This helper is usually female, with the most well-known being Navi from Ocarina of Time.

Midna is probably the coolest of his helpers in my opinion, eventually coming into her own as a well-rounded character.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

And let’s not forget Fi from Skyward Sword, who established another pretty funny fact: The master sword is now officially female. Yes, the sword that’s been there throughout all the Zelda games, carried by all incarnations of the hero, has a female soul and is thus female herself. We never knew this before, but now we do. We always had a female companion watching over us and fighting by our side in all the games in this series.

The Legend of Zelda series and female representation

All in all, it’s great that one of the most influential adventure games in the world has made the effort to have a rich history where both males and females play an important part in the stories. In my opinion, it makes an already great game franchise even better. Gender-optional Link or not, I’m going to continue keeping up with this classic franchise.

[—Editing/cleanup/revisions to this article provided by Dr. Winston O’Boogie and Elliot Hodgett.]

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  • Crobatman

    I take umbridge at the idea of Spirit Tracks Zelda being useless.
    While it was true that she was a ghost that was scared of Mice, she was also 1.able to control giant suits of armour, 2.an active partner on the adventure who does a huge part saving her kingdom and 3. The first playable Zelda in the franchise (that wasn’t in the CDI games).
    She was one of the primary characters, one that did just as much as Link to save the Kingdom and indeed is one of the only Zeldas to have an active role throughout the story.
    As for the mouse thing, I don’t see i why it’s a problem for her to have a fear of a type of animal. Every character is allowed a phobia, no matter what gender they are. Hell I’m pretty sure they only put it in for a joke, so you could see a big threatening Phantom cringing away from a tiny nonthreatening mouse.

    So in conclusion, I’d say that Spirit Tracks Zelda is the least useless Princess in the series. Don’t look down on her just because she’s not a pirate or a ninja.
    She’s a resourceful woman who takes a huge disadvantage, namely being removed from her body, and turns it into an advantage, being an equal partner in saving New Hyrule from the Demon King.
    (she’s also the first Zelda to be seen doing paperwork. Not a huge thing, but it helps to show she’s not a figurehead and actually does rule the country)

    • Sofie Liv

      You might want to actually want to re-read that part of the article again buddie, I did in fact NOT call her useless, on the contrary I called her. “Usefull.”

      And honestly that statement was mostly meant as a stupid joke to illustrate how much Zelda changes from game to game.

      I really don’t mind her in spirit tracks.

      It is kind of an odd direction now when other games has mostly focused on her being royal with a hidden ninja side and massive magical powers, into a ghost.

      I see the idea! To for ones make the “companion.” that games. “Navi.” if you will, into Zelda herself, giving her more to do than sitting around in her palace.

      And she’s fine in that game, I don’t mind her, she doesnt stand out either but she’s fine.

      There’s been worse companions and worse companion mechanics in this game franchise.

      Seriously, I like the idea of “Fi.” I like her story, being an emotionless inner voice of the sword that actually learns feelings of friendship and attachment over the course of the game and thusly has an emotional attachment to the hero in all his future incarnations, thusly helps him out of choice letting him pull the sword out of the stone everytime Link is reborn to safe the world.

      It’s a really touching story if you think about it…. She sucks as a mechanic! Wauw can she be annoyed popping out stopping the flow of the game to tell us what we all ready know and what she had already told us a gazillion times!

      I don’t know why they made her that way, this was not an issue with Midna.. a little bit with Navi with all that “Hey listen!” stuff, but then you could at least just ignore her until she went away.

      With Fi, no no, she apparently just have to jump out and stop the entire game for five seconds, which is bearable the first few time she does it, but after time number hundreth it’s annoying as hell!

      Zelda never does that in Spirit tracks. She’s just fine there.

      Not a stand out companion but fine, interesting to get to spend a little more time with one of the Zeldas.

      She’s doing a heck of a lot more than she does in “Link between worlds.” which is a game I love the crap out of! That’s a great Zelda game!

      Zelda herself though, takes her the intro to get stuck in a painting for the rest of the game.

      What is this? Luigis mansion where Mario has been rendered useless inside of that painting.

      Okay fine, time for the reincarnation of the hero to go safe her… again.

      I wonder if one day Link is reborn and goes. “Nope! Not going to do it this time! I’ve been wasting all my other lifes on this crap saving the world, I never get to just be me! Somehow the world always manages to screw itself up while i’m gone. Well fuck it, i’m gonna go fishing. Ganon, why do you continue? You know there’s always a reincarnation of the hero of time AND zelda herself waiting for you every time you return, just give it a rest why don’t you?”

      And this was all loving sarcasm btw, I LOVE the Zelda games, I think they are great as they are and would change little to nothing about them X)

      • Crobatman

        I might have got somewhat mixed up. Though you did call her “helpless”, which I still believe is pushing it. However, I apologize. As ST Zelda is my favorite holder of the name, I may have gotten a bit overzealous

        I do like the idea of Fi. While I have not yet played Skyward Sword (due to being more of a handheld user, though I do own the game) I have heard a great deal about her, and I really do like the idea of a logical character to join in your adventure. Then again, I’m also NOT a fan of sentient weapons as a rule, so she is a mixed bag.

        • Sofie Liv

          Have you played Link Between Worlds yet? That game is so great!
          And it’s brilliant for old school Zelda fans to as it takes so much from. “Link to the past.” The third Zelda game to the NES that has been claimed by many to be the best Zelda game, those whom are old schoolers you know.
          Funny thing about the original Zelda triology, if you got a 3DS you can just buy them on e-shop and try them out yourself! I like those games, they are entertaining, of course not up to the graphical standards of the Zelda games made specifically for the DS, but entertaining none the less, and a funny little look back at how it all started back in the day when all we got in consol game graphics were pixel.
          Ahhh… the days of Super nintendo and Super Mario 3, I honestly remember that, I had a couple of friends owning that. Good times, good times X)

          I must admit my feelings for ST as a game in the whole is… pfff..
          There’s nothing wrong with the game at all! From a critical stand point it’s an excellent game with nothing wrong with it at all.

          From my personal stand point though… I don’t know, I just never really got into the game.

          I did grow up in the N64 era, that consol was my own first home consol and I played “Ocarina of time.” when it was still brand new and nobody anywhere had seen anything like it before, so that made it a massive exsperience for me and it became a very important part of my childhood.

          I guess I kind of miss the open world to explore, even wind waker, in spite of taking place on the ocean, you had a boat so you freely could move around in the overworld and track back and ford.
          In my mind that is a very important part of the Zelda games, and ST seems to be the only game not having that in some form or another, instead they have that train thing you have to do… which I am a fan off as a mechanic to be honest.
          Perhaps it would be fun to do ones or twice in the game as part of the dungeon puzzles, but that being the ONLY way to move between villages is to me, kind of annoying.

          • Crobatman

            I have played Link Between Worlds, and really enjoyed it. While I definitely prefer the feel of the newer games (due to a general feeling of scale) I do like the back to basics feeling.

            I really got into ST. I’m more of puzzle person, and I’m a huge fan of styliest art (which probably comes from my love of Pokémon). ST also made fun of some of Zeldas conventions, which I am a fan of, while still feeling respectful.

            Also, the bond between Link and Zelda is friggin’ adorable. They’re just such a team: defeating enemies, solving puzzles and high fiving. Not to mention the badassness of a Zelda that actual fights by your side. They also have a great range of facial expressions (just look at this at around 2:52 for proof:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXfM9lgzr0M) that really made me feel for the characters.

            I’m not really a fan of open world. I always feel stressed, knowing that I’m missing cool stuff. Linear games make me feel more comfortable. Each to their own I suppose.

            I really like the controls in ST. Nothing that major, I just liked how it worked.

            While I know OoT is the better game, ST is still my favorite.

          • Crobatman

            Link between Worlds was a really good game, but I definitely would have preferred that the plot twist was revealed earlier. It would have been interesting to see more of the twist character as a villain, instead of seeing only about 20 minutes of it

          • Sofie Liv

            Yeah would have been cool of the plot twist was earlier, I would actually have liked to spend more time with Ravio after the reveal, knowing to learn him a little bit better!

            Ravio as a cowardly Link, he fascinates me! I want to know more about him, and I think the satisfaction of him being brave afterall standing up to his own princess would have been much greater if we had known earlier that he is in fact, the other worlds version of the hero, but lacks our heroes courage which shames him.
            That’s interesting, to bad we didn’t spend more time on it 🙁

          • Crobatman

            It was actually Hilda that interested me. I would like to see more of her, as her general story was fascinating to me.
            She’s royalty who’s entire world has broken down around her, and so she has deteriorated to the point where she is willing to destroy a world to save hers. It’s a different type of Big Bad than Zelda usually has, so it would have been good to see more of it.

          • Sofie Liv

            Yeah I had figured you were talking about Hilda.
            I just guess I am more interesed in Ravio in genneral, I really like Ravio, his behaviour and personality before the reveal appealed to me already then.

          • Crobatman

            I found Ravio to be fun, but not too intresting. He’s an enjoyable character to be sure, but I still prefered Hilda due to (what i felt was) a deeper character depth.
            I did enjoy the fact that he just basically stole your house, even though you saved him. And the giant purple bunny hood was intresting. It’s a shame Link didn’t have one.

          • Sofie Liv

            Yeah, I also thought that was kind of a funny joke, he’s just staying there.
            And then being a greedy bastard to demanding money for the stuff you need to further.
            Hey buddie! I am doing this FOR YOUR SAKE! You keep telling me to go these places! And you are living IN MY HOUSE!
            Greedy bastard.

            I like him though, I like him a lot, I kind of want to cosplay him sometime, I like the long blue and black striped scarf <_<

          • Crobatman

            I liked the Sabrina the Teenage Witch reference with the two princesses. It was small but cute.

            And yes, Ravio’s scarf is adorable

          • Sofie Liv

            That’s fair, as you said compleately to your own.

            And again from a purely critical stand point, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Spirit tracks!
            Nothing I can put my finger on as a flaw in game design, it’s just different.

            But that’s also just the Zelda franchise in a nutshell, each new game will be different form the last one that came out, it’s a franchise that puts a lot into innovation and always tries to do something new with each and every game pushing the boundaries a little bit furhter.

            Just look at Ocarina of time, the first ever big adventure dungeon crawler game in the world of that scale, they decided to pull down in a 3D enviroment.

            Nothing like that had been seen before that game came out, back then it was absolutely mind boggling.

            Of course plenty of games has come out since then that did it better and looks a lot prettier, ghaphics has come a long way since then.

            But that was the first game daring to take the step.

            So yeah, that’s another big positive about the Zelda franchise, you are never stuck with just playing the same and then just even more of the same.

            All the games each have something different and new to offer that makes it a new different exsperience yet still a Zelda game.

            Oh I love the puzzle aspects of Zelda to! I am a bit of Puzzle person myself, “Professor Layton.” is my favourite DS game franchise, haha X)

          • Crobatman

            I actually think OoT stands up pretty well in the graphics department. It had a more sytlised look, so it takes much longer to look old than something that goes for realistic. I have a similar opinion of WW, and I think TP will suffer from it at a much quicker rate.

            I like the Layton series, but I do prefer Ace Attorney (and Pokémon. oh so much Pokémon). However I do think the crossover game between the two franchises is one of the best in either series. Have you played it?

            On the subject of the actual article, are there any other video game franchises that you think also have a good representation of women?

            I think Ace Attorney does okay on that front, Layton kinda doesn’t. It has some intresting characters, but it kinda just shuffles off it’s female characters to the side.
            Pokémon does reasonably well, some general fanservice aside. It never seems like the women characters are weaker at least, and the jobs in the series seem equal opertunity.

          • Sofie Liv

            Hehe, funny you should bring Ace Attorney up together with that question because quite frankly, I think Ace Attorney has an AMAZING female representation!
            Absolutely astoundingly amazing.

            It even happened, first case in the second game with the Kuhrain village, none of the new people introduced were male, they were all female, and I love how the females they do have are all kinds of shapes, seizes, ages, personalites ext. It’s bloody amazing!
            I guess the one thing I could point to is perhaps it would be nice with a bit more females in the courtroom itself, you know more female lawyers.
            We only had Mia Fey and Franziska Von Karma really, then if you count “Edgeworth investigations.” there was that lady from the flashback case whom turned out to be the murdere, which is really a shame because I really liked her character! :C
            And the judge woman from the sequel game that never even made it to the english speaking audience, oh bummer.
            Mia is a fantastic character though, a very good role model, even with boobs and all of that, and I can’t help but think there is more to Franziska we just never got to explore. Oh well.

            Layton though… yeah… yeaaah, those games are kind of lacking in the female department.
            Flora is so obviously a character they are just stuck with in game 2 + 3 so they try to get rid of her constantly, and when she is there. She just ends up getting in the way, poor Flora.
            Emmy in the prequel games is fantastic though, but she kind of also ends up being the only woman around period.

            Oh I agree, “Layton vs. Phoenix wright.” is a grand game.
            The two games bleeds so surprisingly well over into each other, and the graphics are just astounding, best for either game franchise.
            Also… You can use hint coint in the court cases.

            … HINT COINTS IN THE COURT CASES! My god! Why wasn’t that an option before?! Somehow they NEED to make a mechanic like that in all future Ace Attorney games, I don’t care here! Those hint coins are life savers, they could have saved me so much bother in previous Ace Attorney games.

            As for other games, hmm.. Dragon quest four chapters of the chosen!
            Not only is the hero character entirely gender optional but you get some really cool party members whom are women with big personalities and background stories.
            Dragon quest 9 is also pretty good.
            Someone called to Final Fantasy up above, and he is naturally correct as well, those are big games with a massive univers, so yeah, there’s some cool ladies around there.

          • Crobatman

            I…never really liked Mia that much. I have nothing against her, she just seemed kind of boring, in comparison with her sister. I found her more enjoyable when she was playable.
            I really liked Franziska, mostly due to the fact she’s really the mostly openly hostile Prosecutor. And that’s saying something.

            I have still to play the prequels of the Layton game, so I can’t say anything about Emmy, but I will say Flora was my favorite character in Layton. I think the fact that she was continually put out when she was trying to help made me sympathize with her more.

          • Sofie Liv

            Really?
            I thought she came across as a mature, pleasent, intelligent adult.
            She was the “Mentor.” figure here afterall and a good one, I totally get why Phoenix looks up to her the way she does and uses her as his rock to lean upon when everything goes to crap.

            Maya is wonderful though, and Pearls is just adorable.
            I absolutely LOVE how Phoenix and Maya can have such a close relationship WITHOUT romantic undertones.
            I so love their dynamic which feels kind of like a sibling dynamic to me, and they support each other in the absence of Mia where they both need someone to guide them back on track.
            To me it’s just great sometimes having a male and female with huge personalities sharing a caring chemistry without it having to resolve to romance but just, simple appreciation for each other and their friendship.

            Pff, Everyone seems to be openly hostile towards Phoenix, that poor sod.
            Funniest one has to be Godot since in the beginning, you got NO idea why he hates Phoenix so much, he just does, and understandable enough it confuses the hell out of Phoenix, I laughed when he threw his coffee at Phoenix, that was hillarious XD

            There really does seem to be more to Franziska than the game lets on, her relationship to Miles Edgeworth for instance, seems to me the two are very protective of each other.
            It has to say something that Franziska cared a lot less about her father being conviced than Miles vanishing.
            She wanted revenge not for her father, but for Edgeworth.
            You could perhaps argue she simply grew up under her fathers thumb not knowing much else than what her father taught her so that’s why she can be unsecure and needs to keep up that facade of perfection.
            She aims at perfection because she’s always been told that’s the only thing acceptable, and she looks at everything as a contest she needs to win and maintain a perfect score, otherwise she just isn’t good enough.
            Yet she must feel more than that as she keeps believing in Edgeworth in spite of his disapearence.
            There’s a whole story there underneath it all not dug to much into.

            Oh, you have something to look forward to then!
            The prequels Layton games are great! Great graphics and puzzles! ^^

          • Crobatman

            Mia does come across as a mature and intellegent adult. That’s precisely the problem. Everybody else are these Coffee throwing, whip wielding, afro having lot of crazies and psychopaths, so Mia just come across as less interesting to me. I liked her more when she was playable because she was as much of a doofus as Phoenix, which made her more enjoyable to me. Also, she kept giving me answers when I wanted to solve the case by myself.

            I don’t hate her, but I do find her less interesting.

            I actually can see why people ship Maya/Phoenix. While they do have a sibling like relationship, I could see them together. While I don’t ship it myself (Phoenix/Iris all the way) I can see why others do.

            I saw Franziska coming to America as an attempt to defend the family name instead of Edgeworth. While she definitely cares for Miles, I definitely see her being more interested in the name rather than her brother. I think her regard for Manfred disappeared the moment she found out he was a criminal.

          • Sofie Liv

            That is rather the point though.
            She’s the mentor, she’s the rock and the foundation for Phoenix to rely on, she’s someone to lean on and rely on.
            And loosing her is a serious lose for Phoenix.
            What do you think about. “Apollo Justice.” and “Dual destienies.” where the developers definetely has tried to give the older Phoenix part of Mayas personality, the same smile and calm attitude and so on.
            Though I do think the big difference here is that Phoenix ended up growing into one manipulating bastard with a laid back troll personality and a kind of morbid sense of humour….
            Funny thing is, yeah young Phoenix was a DORK and I like him that way, yet the older version of him being this way makes a weird kind of sense…
            Maybe it’s because of all the shit that happened to him he just adopted this kind of attitude to get by, it’s a coping mechanism… I don’t know..
            Older Phoenix trolling the shit out of Apollo is hillarious to me….

            “I am going to do WHAT?! BOSS! You could have told me about this earlier!”

            “Well i’m telling you now!” … that attitude is so Phoenix getting his retribution from years of abuse now giving all the pain to someone else.

            Oh I can see why some people ship them to.
            I don’t, I don’t really see the romantic connection at all, but I see the deep friendship.

            Erhm actually.. Franziska out right says that herself in the game.

            At some point Phoenix confronts her, tells her he’s sorry about what happening to her dad but that he can’t help what Manfred chose to do with her life.
            To which Franziska litterately response. “When did I ever say this had anything to do with my Papa?”
            And then she starts going on about Edgeworth, that being the big plot twist that it’s in fact about Edgeworth NOT her father.
            She outright says it there, that she blames Phoenix for killing the prosecutor inside of Edgeworth thus forcing him to leave and she will have her revenge by defeating Phoenix.
            While Phoenix also believes that Edgeworth is dead at that point, Franziska clearly states she doesn’t believe that, clearly stating something along the lines of. “He’s out there and I am going to find him!”

            So it’s not even me interpretating event, it’s litterately what she says herself in the game and what is going on.

          • Crobatman

            The difference between older Phoenix and Maya is that it’s made clear when you play as him that, though he is older and wiser, deep down he’s the same Phoenix bluffing his way through. He’s just much better at faking being a professional. Hell it took him 7 years to finally get rid of Gavin.
            Mia in contrast never felt that way to me. She always seemed to have complete control over the situation, and didn’t seem like she was bluffing. Thusly I found her less interesting. It’s a personal thing really, as I don’t tend to like mentor characters in general.

            Franzska is…complicated. She does state that she wants revenge for Edgeworth, but it’s never really clear how much of her revenge plan is about him. A great deal of her plan seemed to be about defending her family name (to me at least). She doesn’t want revenge for her father, because she sees him as a criminal. However I definetly got the impression she did want to restore her families name in the legal world. She doesn’t give a fig about Manfred, but she does care about the fact that the Von Karma name has been bismurked. While I do think Miles was a big contribution to her fury (as she thinks of him as a member of her family) I don’t think it was the main reason.

          • Crobatman

            Then again, It’s possible I’m wrong. I’ve been know to misinterpret things

          • Sofie Liv

            This is compleately my own interpretation but.
            Well, that she cares about Miles and not her father.
            And thinking about the two of them growing up under the manipulative, cold, harsh exsterior that is Manfred Von Karma.

            I could imagine the two had been each others only support, on the same time they both were obsessed about becoming the best prosecutors ever and thusly on the same time had this compeating relationship going on.
            Franziska does has some agenda with wanting to. “Defeat.” Miles Edgeworth, feeling like she is trapped in his shadow and need to reach him one day.

            Could also be a part of the goal, she wants to restore him to his glory, so she can defeat him the real way while he’s still on top, thusly finally show that she can stand on her own.

            She is clearly missguided, she is a good person underneath but like Miles points out, she has a lot to learn still, like he learned earlier.
            His final statement though is that he believes she has the ability to learn and definetely will some day when she’s ready.

            Oh Phoenix, he just is such a fun character every time he appears.
            He just has become a troll, and him slacking off all the time trying to avoid work when he can, as well as just being plain messy is so in character.
            He sleeps in on the couch when ever he can and hands work to other people when he can get away with it.
            Nothing new under the son there.

            I do though feel he has become less naive, but it’s a natural progression.
            A very definit character trait of original Phoenix is that he is just incredible naive and will believe in people for no reason at all other than he does.
            “No way Miles Edgeworth is a bad way! I believe in him!”
            “Phonix… you have not seen that guy since you were nine years old, you have no idea what he has been up to, there is staggering evidence against him and years worth of rumours that he might be an evidence forger.”
            “… I BELIEVE IN HIM!”

            Of course Phoenix was right and all of that but erhm… yeah, serves him well that came back to bite him in the ass by the end of the second game.
            This is the guy whom did EAT a glass bottle with traces of deadly poison inside of it to protect his girlfriend.
            Oh sure Phoenix, that girl on the witness stand is totally innocents as the evidence says… Idiot. You’re an idiot Phoenix, but I love you anyway.

          • Crobatman

            I think Edgeworth was raised coldly, but there is some evidence (pun totally intended) in Investigations that Franziska might not have been. Manfred seems more jokey with young Franz, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he was more fatherly to her. Strict certainly, but more loving. Then again it’s only a small gesture and might not have meant anything.
            I don’t think they were each others ONLY support as well. I imagine they got on well enough with Manfred’s other daughter.
            I certainly agree that she wants to beat Edgeworth so to be out of his shadow. She has a bit of a complex.
            And while I don’t think she’s a good person yet (due to whole convicting innocent people so they get the death penalty, or whipping people) but she definetly has the potential to be good someday.

            To be fair to Phoenix, his girlfriend was actually innocent. He was just lacking the knowledge that it wasn’t his girlfriend on the stand. Most of the time though he is a massive idiot. But a loveable one 🙂

  • E-Bon

    I’ve got a deep-rooted fear of spiders, so I’m pretty sure that even if I was somehow turned into a ghost they’d still creep me out. Though as far as Spirit Tracks Zelda goes, I’m thinking it was mostly a game-design decision to have a certain enemy type stop the player from progressing too quickly and the designers just cobbled together the ‘phobia’ as a convenient excuse to implement it.

    • Sofie Liv

      It was a bad joke, just a bad joke.
      I now regret making it, I think Zelda is alright in that game, she’s alright -_-;

      • E-Bon

        Don’t worry about it. I should’ve worded my comment a bit better, now that I read through it again.

        And take it from someone who frequently delivers bad jokes, it really wasn’t that bad at all.

        • Sofie Liv

          Now i’m looking at the sentence again, and now I realise.
          Hey that is not what I wrote! That’s Albert the editor and site manager writing. “In terms of how awesome she is.”
          That’s not what I wrote, that’s his!

          Yes I did wrote. “One game she’s a sassy pirate captain the next one a ghost scared of mice, what happened Zelda? You used to be cool!”

          That’s what I wrote! I didn’t write “In terms of awsome she is.” … I guess this is what you get from working with two different editors -_-;

  • Huh, I never actually noticed that. Though, to be fair, I was never much a of a Zelda player, I had Spirit Tracks once, it was pretty good.

    • Sofie Liv

      Personally, for a Zelda game I find Spirit tracks to be just alright.
      Let it be no secret that of all the DS games I like “Link between worlds.” the best.

      Phantom hourglass is also alright, especially if you liked Wind Waker it’s a great little addition to that.

  • I’d say on average, Final Fantasy has done a good job with this as well. But that’s just me.

    • Sofie Liv

      Final fantasy has done a fine job over all.
      There’s a big number of very distinct female personalties in those games and definit effort put forward in this department, though I do think the percentage of woman present in comparison to men in the Zelda game is higher laying closer to the fifty percent mark we should be aiming for.

  • Skylar Zenas Mullins

    not to mention the creation myth told by the great deku tree, though I suppose in the world of hyrule it would be an absolute fact, the world was made by Din, Nayru, and Farore the three Goddesses. not one mention of a male deity.
    though I’m of the mind that each game exists in it’s own continuity unless it is blindingly obvious to be to the contrary like was the case with majora’s mask. save for the creation myth, it’s special. in majora it was established that the tree goddesses created many worlds simultaneously so I like to think that the events of as an example say twilight princess, skyward sword, and ocarina of time and the like happened in separate worlds with the only commonality being their creation by the goddesses. the split timeline thing makes sense in theory however I am certain the creator at the time of writing ocarina had no intent of making a comic book-esque continuity so when you actually start trying to put the games together you have to cut allot of corners, especially with twilight princess. that was a great game but if you were trying to build the continuity of the series that game must have been like pushing jagged glass down a thin paper tube. so one day I decided “screw it it’s the many worlds theory for me” saves allot of headache.

    • Sofie Liv

      Also the first three original NES games were a definit triology and thus shared a timeline, it’s first when Ocarina of time happened things started to get really wobbley and confusing.

      And considering each game tends to contain some form of either time travel or dimension traveling it doesn’t make things a lot easier.
      Yet the Nintendo developers do like to try and connect the games somehow, Skyward sword is supposed to be a kind of prequel game telling the oirign of the master sword and all of that.

      Both wind waker and Link Between worlds are also making definit references to Ocarina of time as being one of their own ancient legends.

      So if you really wanna make connections among the games as they keep refferencing each other, you can!
      How-ever, it quickly ends up getting confusing as lots of the things ends up contradicting itself pretty quick.
      I kind of like to just think of it as another “Doctor Who.” case, where yeah you can if you wanna, but it’s all way to wibley wobley timey whiney to make sense of anyway, so well lets just sit back and enjoy each individual game for the good times they give us X)

      Hm, it’s funny actually. When fictional stories makes up their own religion they often end up refering to the higher being as a goddess. There is multiple occasions of this, the dragon Quest games also have a religion worshipping a god’s.
      Perhaps it’s a way from them to have churches and religion without being christian or running into the risk as appearing christian so you have a goddess instead of a god, simple as that.
      Or in this case, three god’s represented by the triforce, I guess.

      • Skylar Zenas Mullins

        you may know this but it’s actually believed that the first creator deities were female. the obvious reason being that to early humans logic; every person is brought into the world by a woman ergo the world must have been born from a woman. so it’s kind of a through-back if you think of it that way.

        technically the christian god doesn’t have a gender at all, the bible say that god is neither man nor woman. it’s just the male-centric views of the time has left the idea in society of god being a he when it would actually be more accurate to call god an it. some might debate me on god having a gender and to them I paraphrase captain Kirk; what does god need with a genitalia?

        I think the reason most fictional worlds use polytheistic religions is because they are more interesting to write for. pantheons like the Greek and Norse read like superhero comics as it is so you can see the appeal if your fictional world is going to have lots of magic and dealing with deities like say the elder scrolls games or I suppose the best example being planescape. dragon age did a single deity but in that world the existence of any god was uncertain so all the interesting stuff is happening at the mortal level. the problem with writing a single god is that it’s hard to create drama and personality around an all powerful, all knowing being. imagine if zelda’s world was monotheistic and hylia was the one ultimate, maker of all, god. then her inability to stop the demon king would be nonsensical to the point of being down right silly. if you write a monotheistic god into your world it can really only be in the form of a sorta unseen hand kinda thing which would mean you couldn’t have any characterization or even a character at all for that god.

        • Sofie Liv

          I do believe the reason why the Christian god is believed to be male is because he created Adam in his own image, and then first made Eva the day after as an extra little edition using Adams rib bone.

          As for writing fictional gods, well it all depends on how you do it doesn’t it?
          How you choose to go about it, what rules you choose to applie for yourself.

          For instance, in Full Metal Alchemist there is in fact one all knowing being in play, a so called “God.”
          The difference here being, this god is really not benevolent nor good, for some he seems downright cruel, though in my eyes he simply just plays by the rules of this world, the entire univers of this manga is build up around the idea of “Equelliant exchange.”
          Alchemists can in fact do things that kind of looks like magic, how-ever the rules are very strict that nothing can be gained without giving something up of equal value, they can NOT just make things magical appear they have to transform something, hench alchemy.
          At some point some of the characters encounters this god, whom also calls himself. “Truth.” how-ever by merely seeing him they gain incredible knowledge, and thusly has to pay the price of equelliant exchange, which is paid as god measures them and see what’s most precious to them, then take it as his price.
          The great villain of the manga downright tries to challenge god here, but also ends up paying a price of equal value, because that’s the rule of this univers.
          This is not a god looking upon people with pity, it’s a god without human emotions but still a god keeping this particular world in balance, exsiting on the rule put in place.

          Then there is also the Miyazaki movie. “Princess Mononoke,” which has a big god walking around among then you can even see, feel and touch, the deer god, whom can both grant and take life.
          And throughtout the movie we see him doing both, he looks at the person in front of him, measure them and then either takes or give life, so to go to him is actually quite the gamble.

          This is just an example of how a fictional writer can choose to depict a fictional god.
          Just meaning, only the imagination is the limit if you really wanna go there and include something like that in your work.
          Just put up some rules of this world and how all this is supposed to work, also it helps a lot of there’s a reason why you need this god character in this particular story.
          In Full Metal Alchemist and Mononoke this god plays a very central part of the story, so it’s important they are there.

          If it was Harry potter or what not, a god don’t play any central part so it would feel very unnecesary to include one.

          And here in Zelda of course, the gods plays a kind of vital role because well, it’s all about getting that damn triforce each and every time, and the triforce was created by the gods, so at least we know where it came from!

          • Graeme Cree

            Although it does say that Adam came first, the book does say that both male and female were created in his image. So, if people thought that, they were ignoring the data.

          • Sofie Liv

            Maybe there is something wrong with my copy of the bible.
            But in my copy it says.
            He created Adam in his own image, and took part of adams ribcage to create a woman for him.

            … Yes I genuinly own a bible, actually I own two, one in english and one in danish.
            I’m not a Christian at all, but religion interests me and I don’t think people should be allowed to poke fun of what they know nothing about.
            As it happens though, I DO know a lot about christianity because I studied it, thusly I can in fact poke fun of it if I want to X)

          • Graeme Cree

            You’re making me get the book about, but in 1:27, I read:

            “27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

            I think one can very reasonably infer from that that both men and women are in God’s image.

          • Guest

            yeah but the he made man in his image thing is a confusing point. obviously a omnipotent being is not going to look human. the book says that god is spirit and that the heavens cannot contain him. sounds like some super-dimensional incorporeal being like a entity of pure consciousness and intellect that encompasses the universe. but then I wouldn’t really consider myself a christian in the full sense of the word I have my own views and philosophies on the matter. if you have ever watched babylon 5 and know of the membary religion you may know that they believed the universe has a mind and will and that the universe itself is god. my view is somewhat similar in that I see god, if it exists, as reality itself like reality is the manifestation of the imagination of an infinite being much in the way that a dream is the manifestation of a persons imagination only in the case of the mind of reality it is lucid. I’m not saying this is a certainty you understand, just that it’s the conclusion I have reached while pondering the question of “could god exist? if so how? etc…”

            that heavy topic aside; I didn’t mean to imply that you can’t write a god just that monotheistic ones are harder and you can’t do them the same way and still be believable. you aren’t going to be able to have the mischievous clavicus vile who has a tendency to have his plans backfire or the jovial wine loving sanguine. you certainly couldn’t make a love interest out of one a la zelda. your examples are all beings that while interesting are not the kinda beings who have all sorts of personality quarks like say Q from star trek. they are more like natural forces then characters.
            you could even argue that the god of fullmetal alchemist isn’t really a god. your description of him actually sounds more like your describing the auditors of reality from the discworld, a being who’s job it is to maintain the logical order of things as a sorta cosmic civil servant. if your existence is enslaved to the will of the universe and you mindlessly act with robotic detachment then you’re not really a god since you would be the created and the universe would be the creator.

            actually starting with twilight princess the world of zelda seems to more indicate an ancient aliens sort of thing going on. think of it; almost all cases of “magic” in twilight were tied to devises that looked very technological. in skyward sword the “spirit” of Fi is very overtly implied to be an A.I. we even run into actual robots. even going back to the deku trees account of the creation he state the three goddesses left the world and the triforce was created as a byproduct of their departure to another realm. that sounds like the triforce is, in fact, a wormhole or some kind of pan-dimensional rift like the crack in the universe from doctor who. it could be like the stargate, a piece of super advanced alien technology that allows the manipulation of time and space. given how much of the “magic” of hyrule in recent games has been implied to actually be technology it’s certainly a possibility.

          • Skylar Zenas Mullins

            something went screwy and my post got labeled as guest, the one about the triforce being a wormhole. sorry about that

  • Gallen_Dugall

    I have never played a Legend of Zelda game, or even owned a Nintendo system.
    I have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this conversation.
    I felt left out, so I’m commenting anyway.
    I think many writers get too deep into their own identity when writing and it creates scary barriers in their minds.
    I never took a “writing class” formal or otherwise, but I’ve always felt context and motivation were the most important aspects of any character.
    I think a goal oriented character, like those common to games, really don’t need any gender assignment at all.
    I think they should have left that ambiguous and leave it up for the players imagination.
    I wanted an even number of lines that start with an obnoxious “I” so I wrote this.

    • Sofie Liv

      Depends on the kind of game doesn’t it?
      Part of Zelda is about buildng this entire world with living people and characters in it whom you go and interact with, become involved in their stories, help them in various side-quests.
      The overall quest of saving Hyrule makes a ton more meaning when Hyrule itself feels like a real living vibrant place, with people living there whom has life, personalities, relationships and so on.

      In the games you always get to met and learn to know a ton of these people, and those are the people you are supposed to safe by saving all of Hyrule by the end.

      The game where this becomes most obvious is in “Majoras mask.” where if you don’t manage to safe the world within the three days mark, the moon will crash down and the world will litterately end.
      That giant moon always hanging over you constantly coming a little bit closer is a constant threat, which comes even bigger as you go interact with these people.
      One of the sidequests is about finding the groom to be for a bride whom are supposed to get married on the third day.
      Then if you make the time run out on the third day and go visit them the last few hours before the moon crashes, those two will be standing together in their door way holding each other saying. “It doesn’t matter we never got married, as long as we are together for the end we’ll be fine.”

      And that leaves such a great impact and gives you more motivation to stop that moon so all these people you learned to know wont die.

      In the Zelda game, it makes total sense to give all these characters as much personality and identifcation as possible, that’s the kind of game it is.

      In other games though, like Mario or whatever, it matters less.
      It all depends.

  • Graeme Cree

    When the story and gameplay start taking a back seat to “representing” groups, then you might as well stop playing play games, and just be a greeter somewhere. The idea that women can’t relate to a character unless it’s just like them, while men can relate to anything is actually pretty insulting to women.

    • Sofie Liv

      If you ask me, it’s not just insulting to women, it’s insulting to the men playing the games.
      That developers assume that the men enjoying the games are in fact not smart enough to recognise women as people as well is damn insulting.

      Granted i’m not a man, but if I were, I would feel insulted to.

      It is video games talking down to their own audience isn’t it?

      • Jonathan Campbell

        I think its less about the developers assuming that and more about the developers not considering that kind of stuff, since most stories have a mostly male cast and the developers end up writing a mostly male cast without thinking; or, the developers thinking they don’t know how to write women, and they’ve been taught to “write what you know”.

        I don’t think they go out of their way to not make women characters or anything. At least, in most cases.

        • Sofie Liv

          I do also think that is the case 70 percent of the time to be honest.
          The default setting for most characters just seems to be. “Male.” so you have to actually give it a second thought to think. “hey what a tic toc, couldn’t this character might as well be female?”
          So well in this case simple awareness is what is needed, it is still only a measly 18% of all characters in movies whom are female… that’s just… not enough.
          We should be aware enough to aim at the around 50% mark in cases where it doesn’t matter anyway.

          Some cases it does matter! Like if it’s a war movie, here there just are more male soldiers than female in real life, so they need to be male.
          Historical movies also falls under this as that is just how things worked back then.
          Modern dramas though and fictional superhero and fantasy movies building up entirely fictional universes like… Lord of the rings perhaps, there should be more awareness would making your world build.

          70% of the time, yeah I do think that happens, and we need to simple make the creators aware of this so they can be aware enough to make the few changes requied.

          However then we also go the 30% …..
          You would not believe some of the inside stories I have gotten from some people actually working in the comic book or movie industry.

          There has been actual, genuine cases, where the publishers/Founders only wanted to support a protect if the women were all sexualised so they could marked it all to a male demographic and refused to pick up projects with this exact reasoning.

          I’ve been a working actress myself for some years and I just HAD IT with auditions for mainstream.
          I’ve met so many talented people, so many incredible talented girls whom was turned down because… they weren’t attractive enough, they had to loose weight to get certain parts. (And believe me none of these girls were fat or unattractive, they made ME feel like a little fat unatractive pig.)
          And ones you as a female actress reach the age 30, it’s over! Shows over! no more chances!
          Males over the age of 30 still has a chance and can get plenty of parts everywhere.
          Women though? Nope.. shows over, we grow older the parts available to us don’t.

          It’s unfair and sickening and the pressure becomes immense, which is part of the reason I left any bigger audience and now only involve myself in projects where I have a hand in the creation faze as well and thusly can decide for myself what I want in it, and what I want to work with as an actress.

          • Jonathan Campbell

            Unfortunately, even in that 30%, there are still many men who think like the 70%. As in, they don’t think they are being unfairly sexist or anything like that- they think they are doing what is right for the project, to get sales up or meet the expectations of the target audience. Business minded stuff. And then there are those who think that pushing for more “sexy”, “good-looking” or “empowering” female characters actually is more feminist than including other types.

            It would be naïve to think there isn’t a grain of truth to their logic, since society- or segments of society- are brought up thinking in certain ways, but that would only mean that attitudes need to change. Those 30% are as much a reflection of the problem as a cause of it.

            I think with superhero stories a big part of the problem is that the majority of heroes are men, and even a lot of the great female superheroines are just knock-offs of established male heroes (Batgirl, Batwoman, Spider-Girl, Ms Marvel, She-Hulk etc.) The problem is there is the same as when you kill or retire Bruce Wayne, Steve Roers or whoever and have their successor “take up the mantle”- its never going to last, and the successor or copy-cat is just going to live in the shadow of their predecessor. You need more female heroes who have their OWN identities and their OWN supporting cast and villains.

            Because fact is, no matter how well-done or popular most of the existing female superheroines are, they are swimming against the tide; the current X-Men roster is all-female but that sounds better than it is, since everyone will just be asking “when is Wolverine coming back?”, and as well-done as these female characters are and can be, they still have a history of being less important and less developed than many other male heroes, which is one of the main reasons those male heroes keep getting used. And intentionally or not, the fact that this is an all-female cast can come across as a gimmick, and something that holds them back.

            As a guy with a history degree, I can tell you that that’s not ENTIRELY true that women are left out because of how things worked back then. Its right that its been a male-dominated world for most of our existence…but a lot of women have been written out of the history books, or have had their roles downplayed. And a lot of history movies are woefully inaccurate anyway, which usually doesn’t help matters.

            When it comes to superhero movies, that won’t change anytime soon, because they are ultimately just taking their cue from the comics, and since movies have less time to play with, they need to keep the focus on the most important characters- and the most important characters happen to be male more often than not.

            Not saying existing female heroes should be wasted or not used, but they need to be used much better than they are, and they need to be backed up by newer female heroes who have nothing to do with male superheroic identities (eg. don’t just make a female Captain America) whatsoever.

            Fantasy has a different problem; as far as Lord of the Rings goes, that was more a product of its time thing (Peter Jackson actually did make improvements by giving Arwen, Eowyn and Galadriel bigger roles), but a lot of fantasy has been either a homage to Tolkien (so, it just ends up copying him, even while trying to do its own thing) or a reaction to him; the wave of “gritty” fantasy over the last decade or two was more-or-less a reaction against Tolkien, and that meant lots and lots of sexual violence and rape, not because the authors have anything against women (in fact a fair few are upset with themselves that they have trouble writing better female characters) but because they were trying to capture how brutal a Medieval-style world could actually be, especially for women (even if they exaggerate at times).

            Then you have things like Wheel of Time, which managed to be both very pro-feminist and very anti-feminist all at once. But that’s another story.

            And yep, the state of the acting world when it comes to actresses is pretty bad. All you can do is keep fighting against it, and learning how to fight smart. Guess having a hand in the creation process is one way to do that.

          • Sofie Liv

            The reason though why Peter Jackson could even make this improvement.

            And yes huge improvement, definetely.

            Was because he was aware of there even being a problem in the first place.

            Simply being aware is a huge step, and how can we exspect the creators to be aware if we don’t point it out?

            Zelda is such a great example and a positive one of this in fact CAN be different.

            It is roughly half the characters in Zelda whom are female, but being merely female is not their whole identity, they are people!

            People whom just happens to be female, and that’s what we are after here!

            If they say. “No big fantasy world can sell with that kind of representation!”

            You can in fact, point to Zelda or Harry potter for that matter and say. “Oh really?”

            It’s a simple question of mere awareness of there even being an issue and awareness that it doesn’t have to be an issue at all.

            I don’t think anyone EVER accused Zelda for being compleately taken over by women, because they are just so naturally, merely there! being a natural part of this world.

            I seriously had an argument with my sisters boyfriend at some point where he said.

            “Making the hero, link, female would be stupid! Because women and swords in these settings.”

            And I just had to look dumbfounded at him and say. “Dude, this is not a historical accurate piece about Arthurs knight, it’s Zelda! There are plenty of female warriors already established in the franchise whom kicks ass, did you forget about Impa whom was downright a knight AND ninja in Ocarina of time?”

            And he turned odly quiet.. HA HAAAAAA! *Points finger Simpson style at him*

            Our argument whether you should have a playable character in “Assasins creed.” being female is an argument that still run high between us though as that game goes more for historical accuracy.

            I’m just saying you are playing as lawless anyhow, so there is no law stopping a woman from becoming an assasin, hell her gender might even be an asid in this situation.

            Oh yes, ABSOLUTELY, we need more female heroes whom are not just the female version of a male counterpart, but there entirely own unique persona.

            And not just. “The woman among males.” like Wonder Woman, but their own entire unique character whom is their own person whom just happens to be female.

            We need more Raven! Black Canary! Black Cat! Black Widow….. jesus female heroes like having. “Black.” in front of their name don’t they?

            Though Ms. Marvel is a special case as… yeah even though she is the female knock off to a male counterpart.

            Well, nobody ever cared about the male one, ever, any of the people whom carried the name. “Captain Marvel.” and was male.

            So it only made sense when Marvel just said. “Screw it!” and gave Carrol Danvers the title. “Captain Marvel.” then passed the “Ms. Marvel.” title unto someone else… And that someone else is so fucking awesome I love both these women so much :3

            God I want Marvel to make a movie simply titled. “Captain Marvel!” and have Carol Danvers in the lead!

            No. “Wonder woman.” no. “Supergirl.” no gender related titles just. “Captain Marvel.” and BAM! Carol Danvers on the poster.

            I waaaaaaaant it :C

            And Mr. Campbell, I respect you a lot, you seem to be such a clever bright man.

            But my god! Lets pray to god we will never EVER get married to one another!

            The arguments and misunderstandings would be through the roof!

          • Jonathan Campbell

            “Our argument whether you should have a playable character in “Assasins creed.” being female is an argument that still run high between us though as that game goes more for historical accuracy.”

            A ha….no, it really doesn’t.

            You can kiss that argument goodbye. Assassins Creed is anything BUT a shining beacon of historical accuracy.

            There are fewer recorded female assassins in history than men…..but that could very easily mean that most female assassins just Do. Not. Get. Caught.

            If someone ever brings that argument up against you, trust me you can laugh it off. Historical accuracy is one of the very last things on the mind of the Assassins Creed team. It informs the background and the designs and costumes and things like that in the game, but if they want to put a female lead in there, it would be FAR from the most historically inaccurate thing in the games. If its even historically inaccurate at all.

            “We need more Raven! Black Canary! Black Cat! Black Widow….. jesus female heroes like having. “Black.” in front of their name don’t they?”

            Yep.

            Interestingly, when they are part of a team, that doesn’t happen so much. Both X-Men and the Avengers have plenty of female heroes that don’t have “black” in their name.

            Something to ponder….

            “Though Ms. Marvel is a special case as… yeah even though she is the female knock off to a male counterpart.

            Well, nobody ever cared about the male one, ever, any of the people whom carried the name. “Captain Marvel.” and was male.

            So it only made sense when Marvel just said. “Screw it!” and gave Carrol Danvers the title. “Captain Marvel.” then passed the “Ms. Marvel.” title unto someone else… And that someone else is so fucking awesome I love both these women so much :3″

            Yeah…but that also reflects the bigger problem. Carol Danvers never really had a proper rogues gallery (her arch-enemy is / was Mystique for pete’s sake, an X-Men villain), and neither did Mar-Vell. The fact that she outgrew him in terms of popularity but still didn’t develop her own self-contained verse very well means that she still has the issue that she is a great female character but lacks the stuff that makes the male characters so great and memorable- a great and well-developed supporting cast and rogues gallery.

            The new Ms. Marvel is in a better position than most other successor heroes (male OR female) but she also doesn’t have much to work with. Being a great character is not enough to make a great and lasting series.

            “And Mr. Campbell, I respect you a lot, you seem to be such a clever bright man.”

            I prefer “sage” or “genius” or “My God he is so brilliant and amazing and awesome!” myself…but yes, I AM clever, aren’t I?

            “But my god! Lets pray to god we will never EVER get married to one another!

            The arguments and misunderstandings would be through the roof!”

            Aw, come on. I LIKE our arguments and misunderstandings. They are comedy gold!

            And we always make up!

            (plus, I’d totally always win.).

  • Michael Berg

    While the ‘representation in this franchise is actually pretty good’-argument is definitely true,
    i don’t see how that impacts the ‘there is no (or at most little) reason to not have this option’-argument.

    Wouldn’t a good example coming from a source that doesn’t ‘have to make up for anything’, be a good thing?